Happy New Year everybody! When Fox’s “comedy” show is making fun of anti-gay wingnuts, it can only mean one thing: 2011’s gonna be a good year.
[h/t Alvin]
And Then Fox News Made Fun of Porno Pete, FRC, CWA…
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“It’s time to start listening to your nagging terrifying doubts about the existence of a god.”
She wouldn’t be here arguing if she didn’t have nagging, terrifying doubts that she’s frightened of confronting.
Evan,
You can look at our world and really conclude that sane humans can tell right from wrong?
Yes. Do you really need a book to tell you that it’s Not Good to kill people?
Sorry, I’m not following you. Nobody is advocating killing people.
But you said that humans can’t tell right from wrong without Magickal Books.
Julie said “You can look at our world and really conclude that sane humans can tell right from wrong?”.
Of course we can. The vast majority of humans are moral people and the vast majority do not follow your bible. Atheists are outstandingly moral people and follow no religion whatsoever – no one needs an imaginary god to be good.
Julie said “Sorry, I’m not following you. Nobody is advocating killing people.”.
Stop playing dumb Julie, Evan never said anyone was advocating killing people, just that its so obviously wrong that no one needs a bible to tell them so.
Humans have existed in our current form for about 200,000 years. Your idea that no one knew it was wrong to murder and steal until the bible said so 198,000 years later is preposterous. We wouldn’t have survived all those millenia if basic moral codes weren’t obvious and intrinsic to the vast majority of people.
The difference, of course, Priya, is that atheists’ moral code is much more about whether things do harm to other people, and much less about arbitrary things [like gay relationships] that can be good, bad, ugly, whatever, depending on the specific relationship we’re talking about. Fundamentalists have a whole other set of things they Don’t Believe In, because they believe a book tells them not to.
Sorry, I honestly wasn’t sure what Evan was implying. Perhaps because I’ve lived in Africa, I have a far different perspective on the condition of humanity.
In Sierre Leone, where my mother grew up, they circumcise females, which often leads to death. Some tribes in New Guinea actually believe it’s a virtue to deceive someone into believing you’re a friend, and then slaughter that person. Truth is, people have been slaughtering each other since the beginning of human history. That’s a constant.
I think that often people in the West don’t realize how influenced they are by Christianity. Though you may reject its tenets, Christianity formed the basis for Western law and civilization. Certainly, the West is moving away from this moral code, but it will take several more generations to completely erase the moral compass it’s has established among Westerners.
Why do you think you believe lying, stealing, etc… is wrong? Why do you think harming people is wrong? After all, from a Darwinian, survival-of-the-fittest perspective, might is right.
Which moral compass? the one that condoned slavery, the burning of witches, the destruction of native cultures, religious pogroms, anti-semitism, the oppression of women, religious wars?
The one that decided 1700 years ago that gay people, whose only true sin is being different, could be subject to a 17000 year long war on their right to exist?
That moral compass?
And you still haven’t address the APA points i made, or why we should trust you, since you are so sinful and broken.
“I suppose, then, that none of you have ever done anything wrong? Truth is, all of us — if we’re honest — have broken our own moral code, let alone God’s.”
It’s all true, Julie. That’s why conscientious people strive to be better, and don’t wallow in the supposed moral corruption we are supposedly born to. We just strive to be better.
and it is why Jesus was quite clear on this subject. Make sure that you yourself are perfect before you start going on about other people’s sins.
But why owuld you want to listen to him, anyway? It’s no fun having to try to be perfect first before you can start pointing your dirty fingeres at other people.
and it is so much more work.
Are you going to answer my points?
Julie, odd that you should bring up female circumcision seeing as how the reasons for doing it are based on societal pressures that come about from religious beliefs on how women should behave.
Sure Ben. You’re right. Jesus said that first we should take the plank out of our own eye before trying to remove the speck in someone else’s. So, the starting point for all of us is admitting and taking responsibility for our own personal sin.
However, Jesus didn’t die so people could continue to wallow in their sins. He came to free people from sin and restore them to them to their created dignity and glory. II Cor. 5:17 says, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has gone. The new has come!”
Becky,
Your point is well-taken. That’s why it’s so important that whatever serves as the moral compass for a society be reliable. Most everyone here is arguing that man should rely on his own heart. Yet, the human heart has shown itself to be capable of hideous crimes. On the other hand, I don’t think every religion is a valid moral compass either. If there is a god, he can’t possibly be the same one described in tribal religions, Islam, Hinduism and Christianity.
Also odd that A. the people perpetuating the anti-gay pogrom in Uganda and elsewhere in Africa are Christians and B. Christianity is also used to encourage people to do patently evil things. Who’s helping the spread of AIDS in Africa by lying to them about condoms? That would be the Catholic Church!
The common denominator is, ding ding ding, RELIGION!
Also strange that you compare uneducated tribes to educated atheists. Know where in the world people are happiest, in every study that’s done on the subject? Scandinavia. Know where the most atheist nations in the world are? Scandinavia.
And the whole thing about “freeing people from their sins” is crap, considering the fact that Christians do no better on any moral metric than non Christians. There is NOTHING that makes Christians special, except perhaps their more fundamentalist members’ propensity for lying/believing absolute crap when it doesn’t jibe with their narrow, incorrect worldview.
I agree Julie, and I believe that the moral compas of most religions are way off when it comes to the treatment of gay and lesbian people–and the Bible is a really bad guide if you want to be a moral person.
What does the Bible say about the “treatment of gay and lesbian people” that offends you?
It’s not what the bible says, becuase it is so patently unclear on the subject.
The problem is not the bible. The problem is the religious people who use the bible against people who them do not know, know nothing, about, and hwo have done them no harm…
…except to exist.
Julie, really? Have you read the Bible? It says we’re an abomination and should be put to death. And Ben, I have to disagree with you–the Bible is very clear on the subject which is just one of many reasons we can’t use it as a moral guide.
Julie, the “we’re all broken” mantra doesn’t work in the case of gays because there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it. And the fact is, homosexual attractions aren’t going away, no matter how hard you pray. See an organization called “Beyond Ex-Gay” for more information on that.
So while Christian people can be “tempted” to commit adultery, they still have a healthy outlet to avoid it (marriage). Masturbation is wrong according to you guys but you have a healthy outlet for it (sexual relations with another person.) Gay people in your sect have none of these things. They have being celibate. And some may feel that is a Godly calling. But even Paul said that not all are granted this “gift.” So what of the gays who only love others of the same sex? Why must their love be called intrinsically wrong?
And THAT is the “evil” and “brokenness” that can lead to suicide.
To put this in a much easier metaphor, pretend that everyone in the world is gay except for you. You are treated like a pariah for being opposite-sex attracted. Everything about you is (despite normal human trappings) godly and upstanding except for your pesky attraction to the opposite sex. Now pretend all the gays in the world say, “unless you change, you will always embody an evil temptation. What you feel isn’t love, it’s brokenness. You can never express that love you feel to anyone. If you do, it is evil and broken, even if it feels otherwise.”
Why not?
First, let’s be clear on what the Bible does and does not say. Nowhere does it call gays an abomination. Yes, it condemns homosexual behavior. But, there’s a difference. The Bible clearly teaches you are not the sum total of your desires — whether they’re homosexual, heterosexual, a lust for money, power, etc…
The Bible also says that all of us have violated God’s moral code. Despite that, God loves us. Rom. 5:8: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Emily, I understand your analogy and I don’t for a minute want to minimize the pain of living with same-sex attractions. But, I live with unwanted desires. Everyone does. Mine are just different. My friend who’s 50 and single has to deny her sexual desires to honor God every bit as much as someone with same-sex desires does.
That being said, the hope of the gospel is that you don’t have to white-knuckle it through life. I’m not saying Christians aren’t ever tempted. But, God does change one’s desires over time if a person allows God to.
Oh, Christ, Julie, just stop.
If you are not willing to argue within the parameters of reality and insist on saying stupid things like:
“Nowhere does it call gays an abomination. Yes, it condemns homosexual behavior. But, there’s a difference. The Bible clearly teaches you are not the sum total of your desires — whether they’re homosexual, heterosexual, a lust for money, power, etc…”
Then you’re not participating in the debate honestly. You are free to believe all the false s**t you want. This is America. We are likewise free to tell you every time you say something that isn’t fact-based. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are Sexual Orientations. We all have one. It’s not a simple “desire.” Your worldview teaches that people like us should deny ourselves all the joys that love and companionship has to offer because your widdle brain can’t handle the idea that, for some people, joy and companionship and deep love will happen between two people whose genitals are similar. Why you’re fixated on this, I do not know, but it says much more about you than it does about us.
Another place you walked right up to reality and ran the other way crying:
“I understand your analogy and I don’t for a minute want to minimize the pain of living with same-sex attractions.”
What pain?! The only “pain” involved is inflicted by prudish, moralistic scolds like yourself, but you’re not having any effect on the people here, my god. No, your worldview is designed so that when people like you go spouting off your uninformed, scientifically illiterate b******t, the people who are hurt by it usually are the kids in your community/church/home who are gay, but haven’t told you yet. Your worldview is the reason other kids learn that it’s okay to bully kids for being gay. Your worldview is what leads to gay kids killing themselves.
That said, your faux-sweet words about the Gospel are merely a salve for people who aren’t willing to take responsibility for their own lives.
my “pain” isn’t caused by my sexual orientation. In fact the ability to be in love with other women isn’t something I’d trade even if given the choice, it’s so natural to me.
The “pain” comes when people like you insist they are so “loving” when really you have NO clue how hateful it really is to insist to someone their intrinsic attractions are evil, because they don’t have the correct set of genitals.
It’s the pain of being the only one of the 2 of you who realize how hurtful it is, and the pain of knowing there are some kids out there who can’t make it through all of that.
Julie said “After all, from a Darwinian, survival-of-the-fittest perspective, might is right.”.
That’s not the way it works Julie. When individuals cooperate with each other that betters the lives of all and makes all more likely to survive. So in the survival of the fittest, in the case of humans the fittest are those who cooperate with each other – we evolved to be cooperative. If everyone evolved to be murderous it would have resulted in fewer offspring being left behind and that was therefore selected against.
Julie said “Most everyone here is arguing that man should rely on his own heart.”.
Not me, I’m advocating that people should rely on their heads for their morals.
Julie said “Yet, the human heart has shown itself to be capable of hideous crimes.”.
Not in the vast majority of cases. Its incorrect to argue that the worst behaving people are typical of everyone. The typical person is evolved to cooperate and be considerate of others.
Julie said “What does the Bible say about the “treatment of gay and lesbian people” that offends you?”.
Stop playing stupid Julie. The old testament says that gays must be put to death and the new testament says that gays are worthy of death. Your bible is awfully damn offensive.
Julie said “The Bible clearly teaches you are not the sum total of your desires — whether they’re homosexual, heterosexual, a lust for money, power, etc…”.
That’s another one of the idiotic ideas from christianity. Our desires and behaviors aren’t divorced from who we are as people, they to a large degree exist precisely because of who we are. Our sexual orientation is a core part of our being, if you hate same sex relationships you hate same sex attracted people.
Julie said “But, God does change one’s desires over time if a person allows God to.”.
Julie take the bloody blinders off and look at reality for a change instead of your out of touch religious fantasies. Study after study has shown it is virtually impossible for anyone to change same sex attractions into opposite sex attractions. This lie of yours causes untold heartbreak and pain. Stop it Julie – have a heart.
And Julie before you go asserting that the “human heart” is unfit to decide morals ponder the fact that your bible was made up by human hearts. If you think human hearts can’t be trusted then neither can your bible. That’s why it contains so much hate against those who’ve harmed no one.
Oh Julie, please–
“First, let’s be clear on what the Bible does and does not say. Nowhere does it call gays an abomination. Yes, it condemns homosexual behavior. But, there’s a difference. The Bible clearly teaches you are not the sum total of your desires — whether they’re homosexual, heterosexual, a lust for money, power, etc…”
Read that and tell me it’s not b.s.
Also, I have no pain from same sex attraction–as a matter of fact I had pain when I was a Christian–since accepting my “same sex attraction” as you Christian scolds insist on calling it (and I’m still not sure why) I have been more happy than not, and any pain I have experienced isn’t because of being gay it’s just been from living life or from dealing with people who refuse to pull their heads out.
Becky, they call it “same sex attraction” because for them to use the correct, scientific terms would cede ground to reality in their heads, so they construct alternate fantasy worlds where their words/ideas/reasons for being actually make sense.
I want to join AFTAH asap! I love the idea that the meetings are “shirtless”; Seeing Porno Pete shirtless and in assless chaps would be exciting. AFTAH here I come !
Wonderful to see that creationist christian nutbag peter labarbera is seething about Fox News and Evan’s blog! And that silly girl above, Julie, claiming that without christianity we wouldn’t know how to be good – it says more about her to be honest.
I fear the say when she realises that Darwin was right about our lowly origins; she sounds just the type of person who would go on a killing spreee because no celestial tooth fairy is watching over her.
Do you believe all this Christian superstition for a reason, or was it just something you were brought up to believe as a child, when you were too young to think for yourself, Julie?
Becky– i have to disagree. What the bible may or may not say about “homosexual behaviour” is entirely open to question. Most people have not actually studied the relevant passages. for example, when people cite leviticus as a prohibition against homosexuality, they are making it up. Lesbians are even mentioned. Such liberties should not be countenanced by biblical literalists.
As for Julie, she has her viewpoints, and she is going to stick with them.
We pointed out that her comments about the APA were flat out wrong. No comment from her. It must be the great international gay conspiracy, mighty even in 1973, with fairy powers far beyond those of mortal men.
She uses her “we’re all broken” cant to mask her need to be on a gay website telling us how wrong we are. No comment that when Jesus said you much achieve perfection before you can spend time on others’ imperfections. And of, course she is right. you can’t be much more broken than when your lord and saviour tells you directly “knock it off”, and all you can say is “Lord, I’m too busy doing something i enjoy.”
She calls the bible a moral compass (if compass means sewer, she’s right), and ignores how it has been used as a weapon for centuries. This kind of ignorance isn’t pretty, and bespeaks a need to be right that borders on the pathological.
She rants on and on about the pain caused by same sex attractions, being notably silent about her own pain, and ignoring real gay people telling her that she is making it all up– except, for perhaps herself. Yet more time being dishonest. Julie: the proper response is “I didn’t realize I had a misconception about the lives of gay people.”
The problem is not that Julie is dishonest, illogical, intellectually vapid, rationalizing, and– shall we say it– wallowing in the sin of disobedience…
the problem is that she is dishonest with herself. she should be asking herself WHY she must be here, judging others– excuse me, reporting what the bible says– ignoring the facts of the matter, any and all matters, insisting that she undertands something she clearly has not a clue about.
Let’s hear it, julie. Confess it all in this anonymous forum.
Or go to your usual right wing blogs, listen to the echo chamber, and convince yourself that you are intelligent, understanding, and doing good in the world, instead of adding to the pain.
Julie– here’s a real fact for you.
“God’s Word” is where religious people turn to justify their most egregious acts against others, acts which cannot be justified by the simpler, more human standards of logic, fact, experience, compassion, respect, decency, and good manners.
It’s all just too much work.
Ben, you can read the Bible and read explicitly what it says. I know that people want to believe the Bible is a book that teaches us to love one another but it’s just not. It’s a book of teachings by an ancient Bronze Age culture that was desperate to keep its barely civilized people in line. We’ve had a lot of growth since then and it’s ridiculous to hold onto it as a moral guide.
We’re 100% in agreement. But we still need to be accurate, even about Iron age chronicles that some people have elevated to Godhead.
I think Julie believes we would be a good “get” for her and that she would get more points, or some damn thing.
The could be it, but I would be willing to guess that she is looking for validation for her choice of blaming all of the bad choices she has made in her life on her homosexuality, or whatever addiction she has going. Since it can be quantified, labelled, and tied down, changing it means that she can change everything else.
As always in those cases, the problem is not homosexuality or addiction, or whatever horreur du jour they fantasize about. It’s their self hatred that’s the problem. all else flows from there.
Ben in Oaklan, I should let this drop (I really, really should) but the Bible is pretty clear on what it says about gay sex and what the penalty should be. If you’re trying to argue that it’s been mistranslated or that in the cultural context of the time it was written it would have meant something different–that’s all well and good but it’s closing the stable after the horses have run away. If the mission is somehow trying to reclaim the Bible from homophobes I think it’s too late unless we just want to say that we should pick and choose what in the Bible we believe (as most people already do even if they won’t admit it) then, fine–but the words are still there in the Bible.